Mike K., 6/5/2009

► Nut Grass?

I couldn't believe it when I saw shoots coming through the bottom of my vinyl liner, inground pool.  The dealer said it is nut grass and that there was not much to be done.  Have you ever heard about this problem?  I need help. Please.

Kevin E., Fire Island, NY, 6/2/2004

Yes, I have heard about it before.   Fortunately, it is not very common.  You cannot add a weed killer to the water!  If you pull it out, you will have a hole.  If you don't get all of the roots, it could come back.  However, the hole can be patched.  Suggest this to the dealer and see what he thinks.  Pull out the nut grass, one at a time.  Use a turkey baster to inject some weed killer through the hole and then patch the spot.  It might work, but it could sprout elsewhere.  I suppose it comes down to how many shoots there are?  If the vinyl liner is replaced, you should remove the old sand base and replace with new material.  I would follow this with an application of a long-lasting weed killer before dropping in the new liner.  There is such a thing as a hard bottom vinyl pool.  It may not be a total solution, but is worth looking into.   Basically, the bottom is the same as a conventional inground, vinyl pool, with the exception that some dry cement powder is added to the sand base.  A gentle misting of water starts the cement and the bottom hardening, as the liner is dropped in.  I had a hard bottom in two vinyl pools, without any problems.  Good luck.  I hope that I was helpful.

Sincerely,  Alan Schuster, 6/2/2004

► Bugged?

Hi Alan.  We purchased a 27' Round pool about 2 years ago.  Last year in the middle of winter, we noticed we had no water in the pool.  Well because it was still under warranty.  The pool company replaced the liner in the spring. Well, we just lost all the water in our pool and couldn't figure out where the leak was.  The pool company came to inspect the liner and told us that we have a bug problem.  They seem to think there are bugs eating the liner since there were many small holes.  Have you ever heard of such a thing?  Would these bugs be termites?  Ants?

Denise G. in Massachusetts, 8/29/2004

I checked into this and was told that such instances are highly remote, but are possible.  Short of saying that it can't happen, it is very rare and may depend on the existence of drought conditions.  Insects do not eat vinyl.  Possibly, under extreme conditions, they can chew through the liner, in search for water.   Unless you have some concrete visible evidence of such insect activity, it is far more likely that the holes are the result of a poor quality pool base.  The base under the pool should be free of pointed or sharp objects and the ground must be level and topped off with a layer of vermiculite pool base or fine sand.  In those rare instances, where there is insect involvement, the area under and around the pool should be treated by an exterminator and the area covered with a resistant plastic barrier and pool base.  I hope that I have been of help. 

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 8/29/2004

Editors note:  I checked with a expert and the conclusion is that it is very, very rare. Unfortunately, that is little consolation. Here are a few suggestions.  If you want to use an insecticide, one that is not solvent based or is a dry material would be preferred.  Insects or termites do not eat vermiculite.  It has been reported that DE can act as a deterrent against insects.  It would be worthwhile mixing DE in with the vermiculite or clean sand.  Adding a dry insecticide would be another plus.  Once the pool has been refilled, you might want to treat the pool perimeter (the ground around the pool - not the water) with an insecticide.  This could be repeated periodically.  Vinyl liners are petro-chemical products and contain no cellulose or other materials normally associated with termites or insects.

► Vinyl Repair?

I have a small hole in the liner near the water line.  Can a vinyl repair patch work underwater?  Thanx.

Barry H., Easton, PA, 6/13/2006

Boxer Adhesives makes a complete line of repair kits, patches and adhesives.  The patches can even be used underwater, on the walls or bottoms of above ground or inground pools.  There are several different types available.   Pick one and follow the directions.  The sooner you repair the hole - the less likely it is that the vinyl liner will tear.  Good luck and I hope that I was helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 6/13/2006

► Tablets In The Skimmer?

We had an 18X36 vinyl inground pool installed this season.  I have been using the "hockey puck" tablets in the skimmer.  I was familiar with the method because of how my parents maintained their pool.  A friend mentioned that this is not a good method and suggested that I get a chlorinator.  Is that the case?  Thank you.

Billy, 6/12/2003

It does sound like a case of like father like son!  There are a host of reasons that you should not be following this practice.  Some filter manufacturers will frown on this chlorination method.  If you have a heater, it can lead to heater damage.  At the very least you are exposing your vinyl liner to fading. Picture this:  after the pump shuts off the chlorine tablets continue their slow dissolution and raise the chlorine level in the skimmer.  Convection and currents can carry this higher chlorine content water out of the skimmer and into contact with the liner.  Given enough time, there can be a degree of liner fading, especially in the areas surrounding the skimmer containing the chlorine tablets.  If you add an automatic chlorinator, I'm sure that you will find that your use of chlorine will decrease because it is not being consumed in your filter and that you will have more control over the chlorine level.   And of course your liner's appearance may be saved.  Browse through the archives for more information on chlorine, filters, heaters and liners.  I hope that I have been helpful and convincing.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 6/12/2003

► Fungus On The Reverse Side Of Liner?

My pool has some grayish stains in the hopper.  I have tried everything; shocking, rubbing with a chlorine tablet and ascorbic acid and nothing has helped.  It seems to start in the spring and spread and darken as time passes.  The dealer says that it a fungus growing on the reverse side of the liner and I'll have to live with it.  Is there any suggestion that might help?  Thank you.

Mike T., 6/11/2009

Information on this topic is very sketchy.  The only person I had a conversion with, in depth, does not want to have his name made public.  He is not in the liner business and, therefore, does not want to handle the inquiries.  It is not a common problem.  But if you have the problem that is no consolation. 

Some types of bacteria and/or fungi, found in the soil, can actually appear to penetrate a vinyl liner and cause stains to appear on the liner. Usually they will start off as spots or cloud-like formations on the liner.  Chemicals used to elimination algae and other microorganisms have little or no effect, on these types of stains, since it doesn't get to the source of the microorganisms in the soil.

If a pool is thought to have a problem with microorganisms, mold or fungus staining reverse-side of the liner, the ground underneath the liner should be replaced with fresh sand, vermiculite or pool base.   Afterwards, treat with a solution of one-part liquid pool chlorine and three-parts tap water.   Apply with a garden sprayer several times.   Wait a few hours, before prior dropping the liner into place.  If it is not a new liner, please bear in mind that the liner could shrink and become useless, if allowed to dry out completely.  An alternative to the chlorine/water spray would be use use a non-solvent based herbicide on fresh sand, vermiculite or pool base.

If the liner has been recently replaced, one method which has been discovered that may provide a solution.  The application of Ferrous Sulfate (FeSO4), to the perimeter around the outside of the pool can change the pH and the soil chemistry.  This chemical is a reducing agent and exhibits acidic properties.  This technique seems be be effective in retarding and/or killing the troublesome bacteria, mold or fungus.   This stems from a method used to protect the vinyl liners used under some landfills.  This may not a guaranteed cure, but has been met with some success.  It can be tried without having to drain the pool and replace the liner.  For an typical inground pool, you might require twelve to fifteen pounds of this chemical.  Sprinkle it on the ground, around the outside pool perimeter,  near the pool patio or deck, on as much of the pool perimeter, as possible.  Afterwards, turn a lawn sprinkler on the area, for two or three days: long enough to get the ground around the pool thoroughly saturated with water. The intent is to get the ferrous sulfate to soak deep into the ground.   Hopefully, it will change the pH and soil chemistry enough and kill off or retard the growth of these troublesome microorganisms.  Results may not be seen for a few weeks, depending upon the nature of the soil's chemistry and drainage properties.  Direct application of chemicals can damage some plants or grasses, so abundant watering and drainage is important.  Ferrous sulfate is used with plants such as:  Rhododendrons, Azaleas, Blueberries, Mountain Laurel, Holly and Blue Hydrangea, that thrive best in acidic soil.  Do not allow this chemical to get into the pool, as it will cause water discoloration and staining of underwater surfaces.  An alternative to the surface distribution would be the digging of a series small holes around the pool perimeter and burying some of the ferrous sulfate, in each one.  Follow with a thorough watering down of the area, for the next few days.

I understand that the chemical is available at www.backyardcity.com  I hope that the information will prove helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 6/11/2009

► Vinyl Liner Wrinkles?

When my vinyl liner was installed a few years ago, it nice and smooth.  Today, I see some wrinkles in one area.  What's the cause?

Barry D., Cincinnati, OH, 7/9/2004

Two things come to mind.  It is possible that the bottom has undergone some shifting and/or settling over the past few years and this has led to some wrinkling.  Another possibility is that corrosive, acidic water conditions have caused the vinyl liner to increase water absorption and this has led to a stretching of the liner and the wrinkles.  Is it possible that you have been keeping the pH too low?  It is important to maintain the pH in the 7.2-7.6 range for bather comfort, sanitizer efficiency and to help protect the pool equipment!   Low pH can be quite common with the use of trichlor tablets in an automatic chlorinator because the product is acidic and requires regular pH monitoring.   Because the water looks good, many people tend to neglect the pH.  The practice of "dumping" in chemicals and allowing them to remain on the bottom, for prolonged periods, is not recommended.  Acidic chemicals such as pH decreaser, muriatic acid or cyanuric acid can create the acidic conditions that can contribute to this problem.  Always take care to broadcast or distribute all chemicals, so as to avoid local high concentrations and lessen the likelihood of problems.  I hope that I have been helpful. 

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 7/10/2004

► Vinyl Liner Expansion?

I have been building vinyl pools for some time, but in recent years have been finding problems with the vinyl "growing" under water - sometimes as much as 2" to 3" - causing a "flap" or crease to appear.  Asking around, it seems that a low pH or "pH bounce" caused by low TA and Hardness could be the reason, so I have been recommending the following values for my customers with vinyl liner pools:

1.         pH                                7.6 - 7.8
2.         TA                                120 to 160 (no higher than 160)
3.         Cl                                 1.0 to 2.0 ppm
4.         Calcium Hard.                  200 to 400 ppm

Would you care to comment?  TIA.

Larry O.,  New Zealand, 4/27/2003

From what I have learned, it is low pH that is responsible for the growth (expansion) of the liner.  The low pH causes water to be absorbed into the vinyl.  The parameters that you are using are close to the point of scale formation.  In this situation, the pH is the very important.  Keep it at 7.2-7.6.  Higher readings will decrease the efficiency of chlorine!  In order to help maintain the pH in this range, it is important to keep the total alkalinity at 80-120 PPM.  Higher TA readings are OK, so long as the water remains clear and there is no sign of scaling.  High TA makes pH adjustment more difficult.  But, high TA is not a problem and can be a benefit, if the pH is within the proper range.  Calcium hardness should never be raised above 200 PPM.  Higher readings will prevent you from maintaining a high TA reading: such as 200 PPM.  The higher TA reading will make low pH much less likely.  In essence, your choice is higher TA or higher calcium and I would opt for the higher TA.  The chlorine reading is reasonable. One of the major causes of low pH conditions is the neglectful use of trichlor in a feeder.  Because the water looks great, people tend to pay less attention to the water chemistry.  These tablets are quite acidic and will drop the pH of the pool, into decidedly acidic and corrosive ranges, if regular additions of pH increaser are not made.  The net result is a pool with a very low pH.  I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 4/26/2003

Thanks, I will take your advice seriously.  Regards.

Larry O., New Zealand, 4/27/2003

► Doesn't Look Right?

Dear Alan, thanks for this nice personal feature on your web-site.  We  purchased an older home several months ago, that has an in-ground pool with a vinyl liner.  Before the purchase we had a pool inspection and everything was satisfactory.    The previous home owners stopped by this week for a visit, and commented that the pool liner "didn't look right" and he said it appeared to have suffered damage from the cold.  We had a very cold winter (negative degree temperatures) this year.  He looked at it closely & said 2 liners ago they had to replace the liner for the same reasons.  Having never owned a pool before, my knowledge is VERY limited on pools.  Before I approach my insurance company I want to know:  Have you ever heard of this?  To be honest, we have been adding water frequently, and I didn't think evaporation would cause this much water loss.  The pool has not been used for swimming yet, because of busy careers with many overtime hours, so water loss is not caused from splashing.  Due to the summertime approaching we were about to call a pool contractor to get it ready to open, but wanted an unbiased opinion. Your prompt answer would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

Kay B., 5/22/2003

Pool liners can easily last 10-20 years.  The same liners are used in Maine as in Georgia.  I can't possibly tell what is wrong from your letter.  It could be that things "don't look right" because of erosion due to heavy rainfall, ground shifting, structural changes or chemical effects on the liner.  If the pool is losing more than about 1/4" per day, it could be the sign of a leak and that can lead to erosion behind the liner.  Leaks can be found and liners repaired.  I suggest that you call in an experienced vinyl liner specialist for a definitive determination of the problem, if, in fact, there is a problem!  Good luck and I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 5/22/2003

► Water Right Up To The Coping?

► Chlorine Floats?

I have an in ground vinyl pool, 16 by 32 with a 6' deep end.  I see all sorts of fancy devices for sanitizing.   I use 1" trichlor tablets in floating feeder and shock the pool weekly.   It all seems to work for me.  What am I missing? 

Michael  N.,  Penfield, NY, 4/14/2004

I suspect that you are someone that is taking the time to do all the maintenance.  Obviously you are doing a good job.  Unfortunately there are lots of pool owners that don't spend the time to test the water, add the chemicals, vacuum the bottom and clean the filter.   Basically, you are satisfying the pools requirement for chlorine.  However, there are a few limitations.  The floater gives your less control over the rate of chlorine additions and probably makes monitoring more frequent.  But, these are things that you can work to control.  However, there is something that you cannot correct and that is the floater itself.  The floater remains in the water at all times and can be carried by currents or winds to positions behind pool ladders or into corners.  Here it can remain in prolonged contact with the vinyl liner's surface and this can result in a bleaching of the vinyl.  Using a floating chlorinator in a vinyl pool can entail a risk of liner bleaching and can be avoided by using an inline chlorinator.   The inline chlorinator makes chlorine additions simpler, more controllable, helps avoid liner damage and takes the chlorine floater out of the pool and away from the bathers and that is a good thing!!!  I hope that I have been helpful.  Enjoy the summer.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 4/14/2004

► Baptismal Pool Liner?

We are in need of a new liner for our Baptistery.  We are having difficulty in locating a company which can supply this product.  We would appreciate any help you could give.

Becky, 2/3/2003

I must admit that this is a new question.  I am not familiar with the your specific application.  However, I would hazard a guess that what you are seeking is a custom-sized vinyl pool liner  I suggest that you contact a local vinyl pool builder.  They must deal with a manufacturer of custom-sized liners for pools, hot tubs and other applications.  Baptismal Pool Liners are one of those "other applications."  I sure that they will be able to help with your needs.  I hope that I have been of assistance.

Sincerely,  Alan Schuster, 2/3/2003

► Not Really A Bleached Liner?

Read thru all your vinyl stain question and answers, but don’t think my issue has been covered. I have a 20 x 45 35,000 gallon vinyl in ground. We close for cold winters and use a mesh safety pool cover with tie downs onto the concrete deck. For the past 5 years or so as I opened up in spring I found bleach marks in the shallow end only, some the size of baseballs, some in the shape of the worms that we’d scoop out in the spring vacuuming. This year those blotchy bleach marks are more prevalent, again shallow end only. I use liquid chlorine and maintain a good eye on my water chemistry; however my pool water testing company does not test for metals. That said, as the problem is bleaching I assume I don’t have a metals problem UNLESS, and this seems farfetched to me, the whole pool bottom is stained. All except the “bleached” areas which aren’t bleached at all, but rather the original, though perhaps faded colour of the vinyl.  Your advice will be most appreciated. Thank you.

Steve, Ontario, Canada, 5/5/2006

Nothing in the letter suggests that you added the type of chemicals that would bleach spots.  Try this for starters -- place 6-12 vitamin C tablets on a "bleached area" and another group on a normal looking area.  Shut off the filter and give it 15-30 minutes.  Good luck.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 5/5/2006

Bingo! Within minutes the area under and around the Vitamin C tablets was white, the same colour as what I thought were “bleached” spots. In fact it would appear that the dominant colour of the liner bottom is now “stain dirty”  and I hadn’t realized it. I’ve just taken two samples of water; one from the pool and the other from my garden hose that tops off the pool as needed. In fact it’s running right now. I’ll take for testing and ask that it be tested for metals and minerals as well. From reading your other Q and A’s it would appear that my problem is dissolved metals and minerals staining the vinyl. Please comment and advise how I should proceed to clean the bottom. It doesn’t brush clean, I’ve tried that.

Steve, Ontario, Canada, 5/6/2006

Not so far fetched after all?  Put 1/2 pound of ascorbic acid or oxalic acid in a white sock and drop onto a stain.  Slowly move around with a vacuum pole.  Repeat elsewhere, as necessary.  Some pool dealers carry these products.  Have the pool and source water tested for iron and copper.  Add a dose of a metal treatment, for every 0.5 PPM of metals.  At the very least add two doses.  If the stained area is too broad to be treated with the "sock", you may have to lower the pH of the pool to 6.0, discharge all of the chlorine and add a few pounds of the oxalic or ascorbic acids. Thereafter add a dose of metal treatment monthly or prior to adding new water, in order to avoid minimize the possibility of a recurrence.  Hope the information solves the problem.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 5/6/2006

► Fading Away?

I started to use gas chlorine last year.  Now it seems that my vinyl liner has faded.  Are these related?  Thank you.

Don B., 8/2/2004

It is quite likely, in my opinion, there is correlation between the fading and the gas chlorine.  Some fading is normal, but is should be very slight and not highly apparent.  Using gas chlorine, especially if it is added weekly, will spike the chlorine level up much higher than the recommended 1-3 PPM.  Levels of 10-15 PPM are probably quite common.  At this high chlorine level, there will be an accelerated fading of the vinyl liner.  Such high levels are not ideal for bather comfort.  If, in addition, to the high chlorine level, there are low pH conditions, the aggressiveness of the chlorine increases and that can raises the probability of problems.  If you confirm that the chlorine levels are indeed being spiked too high, you can help stabilize the current appearance of the liner by maintaining a 1-3 PPM, with the use of an alternative form of chlorine maintenance or an alternative sanitizer.  High levels, over time, of any form of chlorine or direct application of chlorine to a liner surface can result in a fading of the liner.  Please browse through the archives for more on these topics.  I hope that I have been of some assistance.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 8/2/2004

► Chlorine For Winterizing?

During the pool season I use trichlor tablets in a floating feeder.  Can I leave this in the water, after I close the pool?   That way it can continue to release chlorine during the winter months.    What do you think?

Don D., 8/2/2004

I wish you would have told me what type of pool is being closed.  At one time, winterizing chlorine floats were quite popular.  The theory was that the feeder could continue to release chlorine, after the cover was placed on and would help keep the water in better condition. These floaters were used in vinyl above ground, vinyl inground pools, fiberglass and masonry pools.  Eventually, it was learned that all too often the floater was crushed by the freezing surface water and the tablets ended up on the bottom.  In the case of a vinyl pool, having trichlor tablets on the bottom for prolonged periods of time will bleach the vinyl liner.  In other cases, the floater ended up near the walls and caused a loss of color.   The floaters also could damage the winter cover due to prolonged contact.  After many pools, liners and covers were damaged, these chlorine-based products were largely phased out in favor of safer winterizers.  Better to open a dirty pool than to risk a bleached liner!  Back to your question.  I don't think you should leave the floater in for the winter, no matter what kind of pool you have.  There are lots of winterizing products available that should meet your needs, without risking damage to your pool, liner or cover.   I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 8/2/2004

► Unplanned Draining?

Dear Alan, I live in Pennsylvania and have an in ground pool that is approx. 50 years old. It has 6 inch concrete sides and a sand bottom and a vinyl liner. It is 16x32 with a 7.5 ft deep end and 3 ft shallow. It is December and it developed a leak and drained except for about 3-4 inches in the shallow end. I will be replacing the liner in April of next year but am concerned with leaving the pool empty for 3 months. I keep reading that draining it is a bad idea but am not sure if that is only if I am going to try to use the same liner next year. The walls, as I said are 6 inches of concrete.  This liner is only 7 years old but a couple of years ago developed a blackish discoloration and seems to have weakened it. We tried everything to clean it but it appears to have bled through from the other sides. I've been told that it is caused by an organism. What can you suggest to prevent it from recurring with the new liner?  So, 2 questions. Can I leave it empty and have you heard of this blackish discoloration?  Thanks.

Malinda H., Pennsylvania, 12/29/2003

One of the main reasons that is not recommended that liner pools be drained and left empty is that the water helps to support the walls.  Your pool may have 6" concrete walls, but it is 50 years old and there is no way to be absolutely certain that damage will not result.  It is possible that the pool will not suffer a collapse, but that is not for me to say.  At the very least have the pool inspected by a knowledgeable pool builder.  The discoloration could have been caused by a fungus.  Have the inside of the pool thoroughly cleaned out and replaced with fresh sand and or pool base.  Make sure that drainage in the pool area is adequate.  Good luck and best wishes for the new year.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 12/29/2003

► Eliminating The Deep End?

Can the deep end of a pool be filled in and a new drain and liner be placed into the existing space ? We would like to make our pool all one depth to play more games in it.

Nameless, 5/4/2003

Positively, with just one reservation!  It is possible to fill up the hopper and install a new main drain.  Having a liner custom-made is no problem.  The only problem relates to the construction of the walls and their condition.  The walls are partially held in place by the water.  Removing the water could result in an inward movement of the walls or some shifting.  Some pools are so constructed that emptying them is less uncertain.  I suggest that you discuss this matter with the builder or a qualified contractor.  No one would know better than him, the feasibility of the project.  Good luck.  I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 5/4/2003

► When To Drain?

Alan, I have to replace the liner in my inground pool.  The water is about 2 feet low.  Can I go ahead and drain the pool?  I don't know how long it will be until I can get a new liner.  How long could I wait to get a liner if I drain the pool now?  Thanks.

Judy, 3/21/2004

The longer a vinyl lined pool remains empty, the greater the chance for structural damage and/or ground shifting.  Do not drain the pool, until recommended by the vinyl liner installer.  Good luck and enjoy the new look.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 3/21/2004

► Getting A Vinyl Liner Installed?

We live in So. California, 45 minutes north of L.A.  We know the pool we want to put in, but cannot find anyone to install it.  We are not stuck on any particular brand, but we are totally stuck on getting it installed.  Can you help us on anyone who installs inground liner pools?  Thanks.

Pricilla T., California, 3/11/2003

I am not personally familiar with vinyl liner pool installers, in your area. However, if you go to the local Yellow Pages, you should be able to get the name of vinyl pool builders, in your area. There is a "find installer button" on the left side of their home page. There are several companies, in your area. Good luck with the pool. Glad to be of help.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 3/11/2003

► Lightened Up The Bottom?

Alan.  What a great website! I have a 20,000 gal in ground pool, and had a new vinyl liner installed a year ago. It looked great! When it was opened this spring I noticed that the liner was considerably lighter in the bottom, where the fellow closing the pool had throw poorly mixed pool shock last fall. I was going to say something at the time he was closing it,  but I figured he is the expert, right? I always mix the shock with warm water to be sure it dissolves. Anyway, I am kind of sick about this.  He tells me it happens all the time and that it could be something coming up from the bottom.  All this sounds fishy to me.  Question is, how could this be fixed?  Could a cosmetic patch be put over the existing liner?  It covers most of the well at the bottom, probably a 10'X12' semicircle.  Would the pool have to be drained to do this?  Would water pressure ruin the liner if it were drained?  Can it be patched underwater with an adhesive (again, only cosmetic)?  Or do I just have to get used to it?

Tom J., 4/27/2004

I am going to post your letter and my reply.  I don't usually make a point of mentioning this and, although the subject is already covered, I want to make sure that the message gets through.  You pretty much answered your own question.  Something fishy?  Nothing is coming up from the bottom!  Too much chlorine was allowed to remain in prolonged contact with the liner and it lightened the color in the subject area.  Arguing anything else is deflection.  Draining a vinyl liner pool is never a good idea, if avoidable.  An aesthetic patch sounds good, but adhering it without wrinkles, without weakening the liner by use of an inappropriate adhesive and without providing a semi-circle of nooks and crannies for algae to take hold in, is something that is probably not doable.  At least so far as I know.  I'll pass the letter on to someone else, in case there is something that I am missing.  Otherwise, care should be taken to avoid chlorine products from remaining in prolonged contact with the vinyl pool liner.  Quick dissolving products or liquid chlorine and avoiding ultra-high chlorine levels could help avoid such problems.  I think in the final analysis it is something that you'll have to get used to.  Sorry that I didn't have a solution.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 4/27/2004

► Proper Liner Care?

I'm putting a new vinyl inground liner in a week or two.  Besides age, the "old" liner has faded out rather badly.  I know that sunlight (UV) plays an unavoidable part in this.  At the same time, I know that some of the fading is due to the chlorine I've been using.  I've heard of bromine and biguanide, but don't know how switching to one of these methods would help with the fading.  Any thoughts. for when I start up with the new liner?  Thanks in advance.

No Name, 6/16/2003

A really good question!  I'm sending a copy to a vinyl liner company and I'll follow up, if there is additional information.  It is true that high levels of chlorine can lighten the color of a vinyl liner, over time.  I would expect a similar, but less significant effect to occur with bromine use, over time.  Biguanide, on the other hand, will not alter the liner color.  But, biguanide is used with hydrogen peroxide, on occasion, and that might have an effect.  I really believe that badly faded liners are the result of overly aggressive chlorine treatment or are caused by allowing chlorine products to remain in direct contact.  A salt chlorinator system or an inline chlorinator allows the use of chlorine, but helps avoid high concentrations and direct contact.  Adding a UV sanitizer can cut the chlorine requirement by as much as 85% and that helps to preserve the liner's appearance.  I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 6/16/2003

Alan, you are right on the money.  Non-chlorine methods of sanitizing pool water are a good way to cut down on bleaching of liners.  I've never heard of a bromine or biguanide pool getting bleached out like a chlorine pool.  We think the best way to cut back on bleaching, while still using chlorine is try keep chlorine levels < 2 ppm, using only non-chlorine shock or adding an alternative sanitizer to reduce additions of chlorine.

R.K., 6/17/2003

► Improving Fade Resistance?

My name is Glen. I live in Mobile, Alabama. I have an inground pool and I am ready for my third vinyl liner. My first liner was from a company called in Ohio. My second liner was from a company in Alabama.  While each liner was functional for 8-10 years, each liner faded after about 4 years. 1) Do you know of any company that makes a fade resistant pool liner, substantially better?  2) Would going to a non-chlorine sanitation system lengthen the Good Appearance Life of my liner?  Thanks.

Glen N., Mobile, Alabama, 1/25/2005

Liners can fade, if they are frequently exposed to high chlorine levels or direct contact.  Combined with low pH, the fading effect can worsen.  Utilizing a non-chlorine sanitizing system, such as ozone, ionization, mineral sanitizers or biguanide can reduce fading and prolong the best appearance of the liner.  Biguanide usually turns out to be impractical over the haul, due to the development of resistant microorganisms.  Ozonators require backup sanitizing:  ionization or a mineral sanitizer can be used.  Mineral sanitizers and ionizers require that an oxidizing product be added on a regular basis:  chlorine or non-chlorine shock are usually used for these purposes. The harsh conditions that can sometimes be associated with chlorine are due maintaining high chlorine levels, spikes in the concentration and from allowing product to contact the liner.  A salt chlorine generator can provide consistent chlorination, avoiding high levels and eliminating the possibility of chlorine contacting the liner.  Adding an ultra-violet sanitizer won't eliminate the need for chlorine, but it will greatly reduce the amount needed, as much as 70-85%.  The bottom line is that you can choose the sanitizer system and can help preserve the liner's appearance.  I hope that this information proves helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 1/25/2005

► Vinyl Liner And Gas Chlorine?

Does chlorine gas (professionally done weekly) used for pool cleaning reduce the life of the vinyl liner?  Thanking you,

Raj M., 4/13/2004

Gas chlorine certainly can be effective and does not contribute byproducts, but there is a major downside, in my opinion. The chlorine level spikes upward, because of how it is added, and that can compromise bather comfort and bleach bathing suits.  In the case of vinyl pools, the color of the vinyl liner could fade at an accelerated rate.  Any method that allows a week's worth of chorine to be added all at once or permits undissolved chlorine products to contact the liner, is not the best method to use in a vinyl lined pool.  I am a believer in the type of prolonged or slower-release chlorination that can be obtained by using an automatic chlorinator or a salt chlorinating system.  These methods are better at keeping the Chlorine level within the 1-3 PPM range, that is so important for comfortable and worry-free enjoyment of the pool.  I hope that I have been helpful.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 4/14/2004

► Found The Leak?

I was losing about an inch of water daily and was convinced that I had a leak.  The pool is a 18 x 36 vinyl inground that is about 3 years old.  After checking all the fitting, I decided to try a dye solution and see if that could help locate the leak.  To my great surprise, I located the leak.  It was in the shallow end about 2 feet in front of the steps.  I assumed that someone stepped on a sharp pointed pebble or something.  I have several questions.  Can I use a piece of the original vinyl, which I have, as a patch.  Is there anyway to do this without draining the shallow end, as I don't want to risk damage to the pool or liner.  I appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions.

Bill M., Freehold, NJ, 7/24/2004

Yes, you can use the original liner material as a patch.  Lucky, that you have a piece.  Boxer Adhesives manufactures a complete line of vinyl plastic repair products and adhesives that can even be used underwater.  Just use it as directed and make sure that you trim the corners off the patch, in order to help prevent them from lifting.  For more information visit them as www.boxeradhesives.com  Locating the source of the leak was the hard part.  The repair will be the easy part.  Good luck and enjoy the season.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 7/24/2004

► Water Behind The Liner?

I cannot find anyone in my area to remove standing water from behind my liner. Do you have any suggestions or am I up a stream?

RODNEY W., 4/1/2005

Recent rains might have raised the water table to above normal levels.  Fill the pool to the proper height, as this will equalize the hydrostatic pressure.  Use a pump to remove the water from behind the liner or walls.  If the liner is out of the track, it should be able to be re-attached by tugging it back into the track.  Hopefully as the water in the surrounding area recedes the liner will stop floating.  Improving drainage in the immediate pool area might help prevent future problems.  There is only so much that I can tell from a letter.  Good luck and I hope that this information will prove helpful

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 4/1/2005

► Vinyl Liners And Liquid Chlorine?

Hi Alan!  I noticed that you seem to have no problem recommending liquid chlorine use in vinyl lined pools.  After many years in the above ground pool business I must tell you that I sell many replacement liners to customers who use liquid chlorine and/or liquid acid on a regular basis due to the liner literally tearing at the water line.  It seems to happen after only 3 years or so of usage.  I cannot recall ever selling a replacement liner for the same problem to customers who stick with using granular shock, tri-chlor tablets, and granular acid.  There are too many cases I can think of to write this off as coincidental.  What do you think is the cause?  Sincerely.

Joann C., 8/24/2004

Too much of a good thing is still too much.  Liquid chlorine is never my first choice.  People try and avoid adding chemicals daily or even frequently.  Pool services add liquid chlorine once a week.  By adding a week's worth of liquid chlorine, all at once, it can create harsh conditions for vinyl liners  It would be better for the liner and the bathers to spread this same amount over a week.  This would avoid the chlorine levels spiking upward, but it would require more time.  If liquid chlorine is added slowly, with the filter operating, and in incremental amounts, it should be as safe as any other form of chlorine.  It is certainly better than having cal hypo granules sitting on the bottom.  Dichlor is very soluble and pH neutral, but continued use will lead to stabilizer problems.  Lithium costs more, but is very soluble.  Both products are popular in vinyl pools.  No matter which product is used the chlorine released will act the same, based on the other water chemistry factors.  The bottom line is that with liquid chlorine it is just too easy to add too much.  Better for the liner would be the use of trichlor in a feeder, as the release is slow and controllable and chlorine levels do not spike upward.  Even better would be bromine, biguanide or other alternative sanitizers:  ozone, ionization, mineral purifiers.  The use of a salt chlorine generator is an excellent way to add chlorine to a pool in a safe and effective manner.  I hope that this explanation will help.

Sincerely.  Alan Schuster, 8/24/2004

► New Water Line Area?

My inground pool has several small holes at or above the water surface and is seriously faded at the top after 10 years use. Is it possible to buy a strip of vinyl (say 2 feet wide) with a pattern and adhesive backing which could be applied to the top of the liner to cover the bad parts and make the liner look good again?

Wayne F., 5/6/2004

Given the fact that the liner is ten years old, you don't want to use a solvent-based adhesive to adhere a vinyl strip to the liner, as it might weaken or cause the liner to become brittle.  You might be able to apply an adhesive border over the existing waterline area.   Click here for more information, on this type of product.  Good luck and I hope that the information proves helpful.

Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 5/6/2004